Cosmeceutical Skincare: Building Ultraceuticals and Choosing Products That Work

0:42Dr Jake SloaneHey guys, welcome to another episode of Inside Aesthetics, and you'll see we're not in our normal studio. We're back at Wise Cast here in Wool Maloo.

0:49David SegalIt's a special occasion. We love being spoiled because all of a sudden everything's done for us. it takes the pressure off makes, we can just talk to our guests and focus on the conversation.

0:57Dr Jake SloaneYeah. So we have Dr. Jeffrey Heber, who is a local doctor from Sydney. And Jeffrey, you've been part of the cosmetic journey here in Australia for probably one of the pioneers or founders. So we are here to find out about your story and you're also the founder of a company called Ultraceuticals, who are now a worldwide brand, known for, your quality and your science. So we're here to unpack all of that.

1:21David SegalYeah, I mean, gosh, I remember hearing about your brand 20 years ago when the industry was kind of just getting started and since then it's just been onslaught of products and companies that have come into the space. So it's really nice to, revisit, know, one of the companies that pioneered, know, the cosmeceutical concept of skincare in Australia. So I'm excited 'cause it's been a long time coming, I think.

1:42Dr Jake SloaneYeah. Now, I first came across your name on another podcast we did years ago with Dr. Kath Porter, and she used to work with you.

1:48Dr Geoffrey HeberIndeed she did.

1:50Dr Jake Sloanetell us about your story. Because you've been doing this longer than most people I know. And why did you do it? More to the point?

1:56Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, it actually started off with my wife. who's also a doctor, and we were watching TV one day. and We saw a doctor treating port w Stones with a laser. And it was a wonderful thing to see. These are quite disfiguring. lesions that people have. And, doctor, name was Adriana Ner. she's, Moved on there And she developed this pioneering technique of being able to treat Port w Stones without scarring. And so I said to Debbie, my wife, why don't you call up and see if you can get a job? there? So she did. And she called up and she got a job. And so she started off before I did soon after I saw a position in a plastic surgery. practise come up for fillers, for. and peels. And it was back in the early days when we just had collagen injections, Cy Derm and Sarlat. so I joined that practise and got into the

2:59fillers and peels. So between us Debbie had the lasers and I had the fillers and materials. And then things moved on a bit after that. Dr. Scheiber was funded to set up clinics In America in California, and moved over there. And Debbie and another doctor left the practise and and, my wife and I, and the Two doctors from the Sidner practise we all set up together. So it was really the first. sort of integrated cosmetic medical clinic. So, so what sort of medicine were you doing prior to that? Were you GP or, yeah, was in general practise.

3:40Dr Jake SloaneRight.

3:41Dr Geoffrey Heberwith my father who was a GP too.

3:44David SegalRight. Gosh. And so what year is this where of saw this ad You of opened up your sort of multidisciplinary clinic, like just orientate with where in the industry timeline we were.

3:54Dr Geoffrey HeberOh, it was 1988,

3:55David Segalright.

3:57Dr Geoffrey Heberyeah,

3:58David SegalYeah.

3:59Dr Geoffrey HeberJake and I was still in prior school,

4:01Dr Jake SloaneWe were eight. We we got the same birthday, believe it or not.

4:04Dr Geoffrey HeberThey were very paint at the time.

4:05Dr Jake SloaneYeah.

4:05David SegalGosh. yeah.

4:06Dr Jake SloaneSo what was the reaction of your colleagues? 'cause we've had people on the podcast before, real pioneers, Arthur Swift and people like that, and a lot of their colleagues thought that they were crazy. So what, what was the reaction of your colleagues?

4:18Dr Geoffrey HeberWell. We didn't really mix with other gps all that much. we went to a, a meetings and, but we didn't discuss it all that much, so it wasn't really a thing with other colleagues that we just did it and went our own way and, forgot about everyone else.

4:35Dr Jake SloaneRight. just

4:36Dr Geoffrey Heberdid what we did.

4:37Dr Jake SloaneIt's often been described as the dark arts, jokingly by me and David because it was of frowned upon, especially fillers and Botox. was not seen as the dumb thing or, or a bit frivolous.

4:48Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah, that's true. Some dermatologists didn't view it as being medicine, it wasn't. therapeutic, it, didn't treat a disease or. illness. So it's yeah, exactly. Frivolous, not serious.

5:03David SegalYeah. Yeah. Jean Carruthers has a, an interesting quote that she mentioned in our podcast, which went, something along the lines of is there anything frivolous about a wrinkle? Which, so depending on who you ask your mileage may vary on, on, on the response to that.

5:17Dr Geoffrey HeberYou have the wrinkle, it's not a laughing matter. Yeah,

5:20David Segalexactly. So this was pre toxin, so you were just doing peels and collagen. So we didn't even have a toxin back then.

5:27Dr Geoffrey HeberNo. The Botox came out in about 96, I think. Wow. You know, came out for neurological use first and then used cosmetically off label. Right. So we got into that early on as well.

5:41David SegalAnd what were the patients that you were seeing? Was this sort of, know, the affluent end of society? Like what was the patient demographic and what were the conversations that you were having with these patients back then? 'cause this is all new to everyone Really.

5:52Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, it's funny, we had a patients across the spectrum. We had Eastern Suburbs Elite and that sort of network who was a sort of prestige thing down to people. I remember I had a patient who worked at McDonald's, know, and she just saved up. And was a really special thing for her. And she came over the years. Uh, so it was across the spectrum and it was a special thing for them, was a, an event. And so what was

6:22David Segalthe education pathway like? Because even today we don't have a, a formalised training pathway for people that wanna pursue this area of educational practise. So how did you acquire your skills? Was it just through the colleagues that you were working with, or were there things that you were looking at overseas?

6:36Dr Geoffrey HeberWell. my wife obtained her skills from Dr. Ner Adriana Sidner, who worked at Sydney Hospital in the melanoma clinic since, she started there in 1980, treating melanoma. So my wife learned blazer treatment there. I learned the fillers in the plastic surgery practise. There were a couple of know, there were a couple of clinics doing collagen at that stage. One had been doing it for a few years and there was a nurse trainer. So I learned from her and from, this goes a long way back. It's hard to remember, but I'm know, I think from other doctors. The peels were pretty straightforward. I really can't remember how I learned those. I remember we used to go to a lot of conferences in America and I remember going to one where James Fulton was one of the presenters, one of the inventors of re on the, know, on the patents, A colleague of Al Albert Kligman's. And, he had a session on, a practical session on peels TSO peels, just and peels. So, you know it's not rocket science doing peel shoot. just have to know the contraindications make sure you Follow the procedure.

7:47which is pretty simple.

7:49Dr Jake SloaneYeah. tell us about your early experience with toxins. When that eventually launched in nine six, I think you said. that change your business? Were you busier? Were people more accepting of injectables? just tell us about the, those early days when it first came on the scene.

8:06Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, was very popular. We had people even. then using it preventively as well as therapeutically when they already had the wrinkles. The injection sites were fairly well established. know, There'd been a lot of use of it in the USA and Canada perhaps. People loved the treatment. The two weeks. and the, the wrinkles were gone. There was nothing like it, it was amazing. And, Really a great treatment which still is great treatment to do.

8:41David SegalWas there some interesting, I guess, treatment outcomes in the early days when you're working out, like injection patterns and dosing? I mean, when we had Gene and Michael can on, know, they were saying that they were just of figuring out as they go, even the dilution of 2.5 was arbitrary. It wasn't based on any, any science or studies. So even now we see when new toxins come onto the market, there's some weird and wonderful things that happen, especially when you start treating areas like frontal and so on. So how did you work out what was working? did you guys have a deep understanding elevated depressor relationships or was it a lot more rudimentary than that?

9:12Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, it was probably rudimentary. I mean, it was easy for us because we only had the one toxin, the only toxin available was Botox. So it was real simple. Uh, and You just had the corrugators and the, and and the foreign, it was pretty standard, it, you just had to be careful not of give people the PowerPoint eyebrows and, so, drop the brows. Yeah, it rarely got problems. Very rarely, In fact, we, we quite a few years, Allergan told us we were the largest Botox practise in Australia. So, we had a lot of patients and very few problems.

10:29Great.

10:30Dr Jake SloaneNow, you said that you formed a little trio with the clinic and you started obviously seeing lots of patients. At what point did you well, I've got skincare ready, but I kind of need to do my own. I'm not happy with what I currently have. Tell us about the evolution of building or founding a skincare company.

10:48Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah, Well, in in the later eighties, very early 1990s, a ingredients called Alpha Hydroxy Acids came out and though quite revolutionary, and really of drove a. lot of growth in the beauty industry in the 1990s. therapeutic effects similar to Retone in some ways, yet they were cosmetic non-prescription. And didn't cause the irritation that Retone caused. They stimulated hyaluronic acid production in the dermis and the epidermis stimulated new collagen. And, it was quite amazing. Um, about that time, a, a large multinational came out with an AHA product that Had 1% AHA this is about the early nineties, and, and cost was a 30 mil bottle. It cost over a hundred dollars A bottle. and my patients were buying it. and I thought, know, ahas, it was a moisturiser, basically, I thought While AHA's aren't known for moisturising. The big benefit is they can regenerate, renew the skin.

12:01And and I thought, this product's really, it's misleading. And I thought, People deserve a bit better. So initially I imported some products from USA and learnt about the business interacted with the formulators So those products. well, the first two IHO brands, actually one of them one. of them licenced by the developers of the, by the Discoveries of the effects of I hos on the skin. the Other brand owned by them. and so I learned a lot about skincare doing that. Those brands didn't have sunscreens that could be distributed in Australia, and they also they didn't have a vitamin C product, so which was becoming apparent. It had, beneficial effects in the skin as well. so, I started Ultraceuticals with the vitamin C product exceedingly difficult to stabilise. I was lucky enough to. find a pharmaceutical chemist who did do it and who was able to develop a

13:04Stable serum, for me, which was the first. one in Australia. at That stage I didn't know, but there were very few around. the place, very few stable vitamin C serums anywhere.

13:16Dr Jake SloaneRight.

13:17David SegalAnd so in terms of where you were positioning the product, so you deliberately went for, I guess, what we would classify as a cosmeceutical grade of skincare products. Was that sort of a deliberate choice to of go down that path, looking for more efficacious skincare products, were science behind or that just happened to come out that way in terms of, how products develop over time and and concepts?

13:37Dr Geoffrey HeberMm, I deliberately. chose the professional channel because people could get the best results, uh, with professional advice and particularly with vitamin A and I chose People needed to be advised what to expect. So I could have chosen the pharmacy channel. I had a product I distributed in pharmacy, uh, but I really thought that Cosmeceutical products should go through the professional channel to get personalised advice and be told about expectations, possible side effects, and have repeat visits to be guided through the journey.

14:14Dr Jake SloaneWhat is the difference between a cosmetic and a cosmeceutical?

14:17Dr Geoffrey HeberOkay. It's not a known regulatory category. It's not recognised as a regulatory category. Any, anywhere except. maybe Japan is a in-between category between drugs and cosmetics. It's a concatenation of the words cosmetic and pharmaceutical. So theoretically it's cosmetic that's had, safety and efficacy proven. Unfortunately that's. not always the case, but that's the concept.

14:45David SegalRight. And in terms of the branding and how you positioned it in the marketplace, a lot of like doctor led brands will have their name all over it. And of, I guess to add credibility to the brand purposely went with the name Ultraceuticals, which was not linked to a doctor. Was that a deliberate choice what was the thought process behind, know, the marketing of that?

15:04Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah I didn't want the product to be sold by me. I didn't wanna be a salesman for the product besides that it was actually illegal. But the medical practise act at that time prohibited doctors from promoting products that they had a commercial interest in. So it was the same for dentists. You might remember the TV os with the dentist, dentist backed to you promoting a teeth, toothbrush or something, or, but Yeah. I couldn't show his face. Same thing it has changed. Now you can, as a doctor, you can promote a product, but you have to have a visible disclaimer that you have a financial interest in it. So

15:41Dr Jake SloaneSo walk us through, you're, you're running your clinic, you're a busy person, lots of patients, and you decide to, create a brand. how did you do it? You mentioned you met a pharmacist, how do you go about making the brand and then, making the products?

15:56Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, making the products. involves Getting together chemists, and actually for the first ultraceuticals expansion, expanded range products actually engaged two of the chemists who made one of the who formulated, one of the. first cosmeceutical brands, the brand called MD Formulations, which Was owned by, Allergan for a period. and then you have to go through the product development process, which has a lot of steps in its own right. the band is another story. That's marketing and, and and, there's a lot to that it evolve, sort, it sort of evolved. at an ever quickening rate over the years. And marketing's probably more important than the product, the best product in the world. But with lousy marketing, you're not gonna get very far. So how do you go about the marketing? You need to get in people who know what they're doing best possible people to help you.

16:52Dr Jake SloaneYeah. And how did you decide on, the starting range? Uh, you said a vitamin C came quite early, but why that? Why not something else? Why not a B or retinol?

17:03Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah. Well, we did do a retinol. We, our first retinol product came out in 2002. We did a. sunscreen, which, won the only beauty award in Australia at that time. Run by New Women's Magazine. Won the Australian product of the year in the best prestige sunscreen. This is The first one, with an antioxidant I think it had green tea extract, in it, and it's Still our biggest cellar today. So, the, just the proven ingredients, retinol a HHAs, moisturisers they were the first first products. And then, we've expanded to treat, all the common skin conditions. One thing. therapists say about nutraceuticals is they can treat anyone who comes in the door. You know, 'cause we have products of sensitive skin and every sort of common cosmetic condition there is.

17:59David Segalso we're now in 2026, and I think saying that the, the skincare industry being saturated would probably be an understatement. Seems every week there's a new product. And so how should anyone that's listening to this that perhaps doesn't have, know, the understanding of how skincare works, how do they actually a product that's suitable for them? What should clinicians be looking for and understand when they're recommending, a suitable range or product for their patients?

18:25Dr Geoffrey HeberI think. the main thing is finished product proof of efficacy. Which is hard to find. Um, but it's really important. Firstly, a lot of brands, particularly in America over here uh, created by the founder going to a contract manufacturer and getting that contract manufacturer's chemist to do the product. So you have one group of chemists of manufacturer doing a whole lot of different ranges. and, so it's rare to, for them to do clinical testing on their finished goods. They just churn it out. And particularly in America. I was just in America recently meeting beauty editors of of some of the big magazines over there. And surprised. that we had our own lab and own chemist. It's so unusual. And so we have our own lab. and chemists and our own in-house testing. facility, With the clinical trial coordinator.

19:29And a chemist, developer product. Whatever it might be. then we send it off for clinical testing, uh, six people for a month and, Check that it gets results and it may be great. We might. think it could be better. So we send it back have a sort of iterative process to you know we get the best possible product. I guess you can look for before and afters on the websites. You can look for, um, Summaries of clinical testing of the finished good on the website. Consumers. are, have a real big problem these days because there's so much coming at them from TikTok and Instagram. It's hopeless. They wouldn't know where to go. The only place they can go is to, um, to a professional.

20:20David SegalSo slightly controversial question. What would you consider to be the, like the, the culprit for the snake oil of 2026? What do you think people are trying to push or sell, which is just, in your opinion, just crap a waste of people's money or just clever marketing?

20:34Dr Geoffrey HeberAh, I, I did think PDRN fitted into that category.

20:39David SegalOkay.

20:40Dr Geoffrey HeberAnd it did for quite a while. There was a plethora of topical PDRN products on the market when it was known. It couldn't penetrate through the skin. It's only two months ago, actually in July that the first study was published, showing controlled study was published, showing that a particular size molecule of PDRing smaller than, what's normally used, did get through the skin and induce some regenerative changes. So, the marketing got way ahead of the science, you know, so, but there is something to PDRN. Yeah. I think you're right. The marketing sometimes tends to over promise. It gets ahead of the science. I mean, it's not just skincare. I mean, we talk about injectables all the time, and it feels like not only skincare, there's a product that's new every week. It's the same with injectables. You've got exosomes, as you said, like polynucleotides, and every week there's a new toxin.

21:37David Segalit's getting very hard to keep up with, even for industry professionals such as us, I can't imagine what it's like for the consumer trying to get their head around what works, what doesn't work, what's the difference between this and that. It's getting quite wild.

21:49Dr Geoffrey HeberAbsolutely. Yeah.

21:51Dr Jake SloaneSo our listeners are doctors, nurses, clinic owners, et cetera. How do you recommend that they talk to their patients about skincare? Because like you said, there's thousands of products they're marketed to. They see, things like goa and facial massage and facial yoga, and the patients believe this know, God bless your patients. So We love them coming to us with these stories. But how do you of ground your patients to make them understand these are the basic things that you need to be doing every day with your topicals to actually get a result, rather than the snake oil.

22:25Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, I, use AI a lot, so one there's a lot of talk about longevity these days, and if you search ai, and I've searched most of the common platforms and asks, what is the most ev evidence-based method of supporting skin longevity universally, I've come up with the same answer. It's Daily use of a broad spectrum SPF 30 plus sunscreen, plus a retinoid, and that's, there's nothing that comes near it. So that's the basics. Unfortunately, retinoids, particularly retone can have, bad rap because it can cause irritation, and sun sensitivity. There are usually ways around about how, how you. can start it. Um, there's Wide variety of sensitivity. Amongst people. From, I'm quite resistant. Can use a high strength retinoid retinol product every night. Others can only use a

23:29mild strength one or two times a week. It's really wide wide. I have to say, with nutraceuticals, We have a proprietary technology which is a nano. emulsion technology, which encapsulates the retinol with antioxidants takes the retinol into the skin, releases it gradually You get very little irritation, you just still get good results. Anyway, there are ways of getting around the irritation. of the retinol. But I mean, that's the basics. really.

24:04Dr Jake SloaneAnd how do you keep them compliant? That's the other problem.

24:07Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah.

24:07Dr Jake Sloaneto sell it to them. They take it home, tell you they use it, and then they bring the bottle back and it's half full. So you know that they haven't. so it it, I always explain to my patients, this is the boring stuff that you have to do at home. I can tell you all the science in the world, but you have to do it. It's like going to the gym. You've just gotta do it. do you have any tips or tricks for educating your patients? Because I, I sometimes think they're expecting miracles in days or weeks, and it's not really like that, is it?

24:34Dr Geoffrey HeberWhat I used to do in practise, was we used to take Visio photographs of every. New patient and and, track them over time. And it's amazing to Take someone's after photo and you think they've got great results. They think nothing's happened and you put the before and after on the screen and they look at the before and they go, is that me? forget how they were, 'cause when you look at yourself every day in the mirror, you take. the memory of how you were out, you put it back again. in the changes so people lose track of how they looked. So the most effective. way is actually just showing them the before and after their, before and after photos.

25:16David SegalYeah. that a lot of practitioners struggle with is patients who have got some kind of skincare product in their cupboard, whether they're using it compliantly and regularly enough a, as a different discussion, but a lot of the time it's how do you have that discussion with your patients if they've already got skincare? Where do, how do you go about finding the gaps in their regime or how do you of get them started or get that conversation moving in the right direction to take on a new product such as an Ultraceuticals?

25:43Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, some of the skincare therapists I've had in my practise have got people who come in with their skincare in a, a bag and go through it. Some people with a bathroom cupboard of Skincare that can be a lot of skincare. Really people have to decide if they want to use the good stuff or not. I guess, people don't. wanna waste their money and So bringing their skincare in is probably a good idea. And but I mean, the fact that people have a bathroom cupboard full of skin too, they've used for a couple of weeks and Haven't continued with, says something. But then again, people's expectations these days to expect results much more quickly than is possible. And they're led on to, to believe that by cosmetic company marketing and competition amongst the cosmetic companies to achieve results more quickly and quickly than other companies. is, Yeah, it's difficult.

26:39Dr Jake SloaneCan you shed some light on what actually happens from concept to bringing something to the market? So if you decide on, I dunno, a new serum, a vitamin C serum, how do you go from the idea? what happens with your team? You've got your own lab, and how long does it take to come to market? And what testing do you have to do?

26:58Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, firstly we need to decide there's a market for the product. And if you choose a Skin lightener, You have to decide whether there's a need for a better, faster. more effective product. And so, Once you've done that, you choose the active ingredients that requires a bit of research. In our case, we just don't rely on active ingredients presented to us from by the salespeople, from ingredient companies who have our own PhD chemists who research for independent studies on on ingredients, and we look at what causes a particular problem. For instance with skin pigmentation we developed a skin lightener, that attacked various parts of the melanin production pathway and chose various. ingredients to act on those different PA parts of the pathway. Once

27:59we choose the active ingredients, the chemists then take it away and they have to see if they can be put into a formula. It depends what ingredient dissolves in what base, and and that can be tricky. Like putting vitamin E into a Vitamin CS serum is actually quite. tricky. Some ingredients don't go together. You should never put a retinoid with an alpha hydroxy acid because, the a HO makes retinol degrade. So the chemist will do a, a draught formulation, assuming they can get all the ingredients in. Sometimes they can't, sometimes a particular ingredient just won't go in the vehicle which all the other ingredients will go in anyway. So they'll do a draught formulation to the the best of their ability then test for stability for a month. So put it in the oven for 30 degrees, 45 degrees per month to see if it's stable or not. If it is stable.

28:59They live it in the oven just to make sure for another two months to get three months, 45 degrees. And then we can move on and do initial clinical testing on half a dozen people and just try and. if need be, do iterations of the Product. to get the best possible product. Then there's more testing. We have to test. The product is compatible with the packaging it goes into Actually made a sunscreen at one time that we put in a, we're gonna put in a plastic container. It actually melted the the plastic container. So that can be tricky. So you do compatibility testing of the of the product in, in the, its container, Preservative efficacy testing. And so they're the basics before you actually decide, okay, this product. And once you've done the clinical testing, you can decide this product goes to market. Then we do internal and external testing. say, we recently released a vitamin C product with an ingredient called terminalia. ULA extract. Uh, ULA is quite an amazing ingredient an anti glycation ingredient but plus great antioxidant effects. And testing we did on that.

30:23We tested it I think on about 61 people. And the results were the, we do questionnaires as well, and the results were pretty good. The, for the, or really good actually The results for, the, we did external testing on that product for uh, dermatological testing, for sensitivity dermatological testing for non-com genicity. We did ultrasound testing scanning of the dermis over 30 days. to, and found that it thickened made the dermis denser, uh, dermal matrix Production. We tested the formula in vitro for with fibroblasts to check. It stimulated elastin, which it did. We checked it in vitro. to make sure it's inhibited the formation of advanced location in products. which it did. And so that's.

31:23that's the sort of test.

31:26David SegalPretty Vigo sense. Yeah, so most big skincare brands eventually get bought by larger corporations. Like for example, L'Oreal to buy buying everything at the moment. So I'm assuming at some point during your journey, you've had offers or you've thought about potentially, know, selling the business. Why have you kept independent or not to go down that pathway?

31:47Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah I've, never looked, I've never sought for it to be bought out. I've always thought the business has more potential, which it has, it's grown grown pretty well. So, I'm happy keeping it. Um, Australia is relatively small market, so compared to the USA and so we've never really had the expertise in the company to develop it in the USA to a serious extent. We have brought, I have brought in house expertise to do that, so, we're, we're, making some good inroads over there. And, There, there'll come a time when that's right, but it's not immediately on the horizon.

32:32David SegalSo in terms of what people should be doing at home to, I guess, compliment what people like Jake and of other practitioners might do for them when they come into the clinic, like what do you think is essential for patients to have, if they've only gotta maybe have three products, as their go-to?

32:47Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, again, if you do an AI search for what are the most Proven. Cosmetic ingredients that are most beneficial for the skin or support my skin longevity, or whatever, You come up with retinoid, come up with niacinamide, come up with ascorbic acid, uh, you can come up with barrier repair ingredients. Mostly. That's what you mostly come up with. So they're the main things. And we have a a sort of marketing saying really, that we call the a, b, C of skincare, Vitamin A, vitamin B, B squared is niacinamide and provitamin B five. They're the two vitamins to have to produce the lipid barrier, lipids and ascorbic acid, which, has by far the most Scientific Studies on its efficacy and barrier repair. Barrier repair is really important it helps the skin tolerate the actives, the A, the C, and so keeping.

33:52the skin barrier intact is with vitamin B and the lipids that comprise the skin barrier is a really important thing as well. So I'd have to say moisturiser. that helps repair the skin barrier. one of the things that I see with my patients, is they just go to duty

34:08Dr Jake Sloanefree. They buy random stuff, there's no diagnosis, they just treat themself and then They go home. Sometimes they get results and sometimes they don't. So do you think that all skincare should be, expert led,

34:21Dr Geoffrey HeberOh, people are going to, for convenience. are going to do that sort of thing. And you go into department stores and, know, the counters are full of. prestige sort of brands with exotic ingredients sound like sound magical and, they're just going to don't suck people in. I recently went into the New York Nordstrom's beauty store and only there, I don't know how many brands there were, probably 50 and there was one. one Cosmeceutical brand, and it's All just this experiential and fluff and puffs stuff, And the pretty packaging. And So you're not gonna get away with that. a lot of people just buy in convenience are in the supermarket, so they just throw it in the Trolley this group of people who do care about. this, their skin and how it looks and who want to use the right thing, want to keep their skin in shape, And the best place for them to go

35:23is to a professional. practise, and to get the right advice. I advised a sort of consultation for ultra, based on the medical consultation, that a professional. in the medical practise could do, Which you couldn't do in a retail, it's impossible in a retail environment. but you can customise a Products to a patient. I used basic, the consultation on an accurate, the acronym ULTRA, is understanding like this listening taking history looking, physical examination translating that into a diagnosis recommending. Treatment, a aftercare. So, You do those things and you can determine the person's skin type, what bothers them? And what products for them.

36:16David Segalwhy is it that even people that are medically trained, when they're looking at a skincare product for the first time, they're smelling it and they're seeing how it feels like that's even people that are medically trained, that seems to be their go-to natural response to testing the skincare product. What do you think about that phenomenon and what role does that play when you're developing a product?

36:37Dr Geoffrey Heberit's actually critical, I mean, even though it has nothing to do with how the product works if people don't like the smell or feel of a product, they won't use it. Yeah. So it's actually critical. So We pay a lot of attention. to making sure people like the feeling physical characteristics, of the product. It can't be too greasy, has to rub in nicely. Uh, If it has a heavy, thick feel, people with sort of combination skin won't the greasiness, it might sit on top of their skin. It's, Even though it's, it seems, irrelevant to the product. 'cause, you want the product to work. It's quite important.

37:17David SegalWe've also seen the the rise of the term the K beauty, it seems to be everywhere at the moment. Everyone's obsessed with, Korean skincare. Have you looked into that phenomenon? Like what are your initial thoughts on that?

37:30Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, it's. flooded the market. Mainly through its marketing. Don't throw out lots of free samples and there's a lot of social media and Instagram posts and whatever. And it's risen from their cosmetic surgery industry. It's, uh, I I don't know about the efficacy of the products. I, I know there were a lot of PDRN products before the science was out there. And I know that there were Korean people on Instagram saying they don't work because it's too big to get into the skin. There were actually Koreans, I was a Korean dermatologist and the, saying that and plus others. Um, so I, I haven't focused very much on it, really. we Just provide value for our customers and products that work. And so that's what we do.

38:26Dr Jake SloaneGreat. Now Ultraceuticals, you guys have three ranges, Ultraceuticals, ultra MD and Ultra Professional. What's the difference between those

38:35Dr Geoffrey HeberUltras is our broad range for treating the of spectrum of cosmetic skin disorders. And it has categories of products broken up into our retinol products, uh, moisturising products with niacinamide, and panol pro vitamin B five, our C products, our daily defence products, antioxidants, sunscreens and skin lightning products, acne products, sensitive skin products. So that, uh, treats the broader range of conditions. Ultra MD is a aesthetic clinic only product designed to go for during, immediately after and long-term after treatments. So It's a a very different focus. it's not sold online. We exclusively. partner with aesthetic clinics and focus with them and create partnerships with them. And we have our aftercare products that retinol and vitamin C to continue renewal regeneration after treatment. If

39:46you Don't do that. People's skin will regress to how it was, you know, I think the damage is programmed into the DNA and, and the people I know. after pills, after Six months, nine, 12 months. people's skin will be back to where it was. If they don't do anything to stop that happening.

40:04David SegalOn the commercial side of things I know that a lot of the issues that many business owners and practitioners have is that they'll choose a skincare product to, to of sell through their practise and then that skincare company will go into competition with and sell online. Which is, I know, big bug bear for a lot of people. Or there's no sort of protection radius with their competitors who have now got the same product as well. And that's something that I'm hearing a lot in conversations within our community and, clinic owners and practitioners that I'm talking to, not just here in Australia, but it's a global issue. So what's your position on and and what do you guys do to protect your partner clinics?

40:40Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, with Ultra md, the product isn't sold online at all. So that of. finishes that conversation. With Ultraceuticals, we don't want clinics to be in competition with each With each other, so we don't tend to put one clinic next to another. We don't do that. You Do have to reach a certain. scale in Australia to cover your research and development and all the costs of running a business without selling online these days, that is really difficult in America. at the moment, half of all cosmetic purchases are made online, and so you're missing out on a lot of consumers if you're not online. So we are online. We don't do discounts that we don't. let our partners do. So if we have a, a promotion, say with a 20% discount, we'll let our clinics buy that discount and participate in it. So we try not to compete We, our clinics.

41:42David SegalYeah, it's trying to find that middle ground where it's still commercially sensible and viable for you, but also at the same time doing what you can to protect your partner clinic. So what do you guys look for a partner, potential partner approaches you? How do you select who you wanna work with?

41:58Dr Geoffrey HeberWell, they have to. be a clinic that with Ultra md, whose main business is energy based device treatments, injectables, um, medical type treatments. We like a clinic of a, Certain scale but not. necessarily, it depends a lot on the quality of the clinic and the practitioner and their experience. w We want to associate with good quality clinics, to protect our reputation. So I guess you're doing some background checks on people? Well, yeah. you can, Yeah, you can, look them up on Instagram, look at their Google reviews For sure.

42:38Dr Jake SloaneThe spies go out and check.

42:40David Segalwell, I guess, they're representing your brand. You wanna make sure that they're good quality providers, they're giving good advice, they've got a good reputation. They're not gonna bring your company into distribute as well, because you know your product's on their shelf.

42:51Dr Geoffrey HeberYou know, that's the important thing. they they have to be into skin. It's not just an afterthought because to represent our products properly, they have to go to training. And that takes time, takes a bit of money and, they just can't recommend our products for dual treatment, treatments unless they spend time coming to training. So That's a key issue

43:12Dr Jake SloaneWith your Ultra MD range, can I assume it's more efficacious, slightly more potent, which is why it's clinician led, or have I got that wrong?

43:21Dr Geoffrey HeberMost of the products have an additional ingredient or two, but it's not really about, the potency. it's more about how the product is positioned to be sold. To be used

43:30Dr Jake SloaneIn that journey. Yeah. So it's we're, how the range is divided up to make it.

43:34Dr Geoffrey Hebersimple to know how to use we skipped over ultra professional. Tell us how that range differs from the other two. Well, the Ultra Professional range Is a range of basically peel treatments that we have. Um, one of our treatments uh, flagship. peel treatment is retinol treatment with an enzyme brolin From pineapples.

43:56Dr Jake Sloanepineapples. Yeah.

43:57Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah. And

43:58David Segalyour mouth

43:58Dr Geoffrey Hebergo funny when you hug. too much

44:00David Segalit.

44:00Dr Geoffrey Heberhuh? Yeah. It makes you pucker up. Haven't done the peel inside my mouth, but.

44:04David SegalI have it accidentally a few times.

44:06Dr Jake SloaneI tried Brom Lane tablets after fillers to, to improve swelling. I mean, I dunno why. 'cause the swelling wasn't that bad, but it was just something I tried extra for a handful of patients. I didn't notice any different. So,

44:16Dr Geoffrey Heberoh yeah, Gotta a try. And we have other peels for lightning, the skin, lightning peels, And and, they're pretty good. We have some great before and after photos and they're very very popular. So, so that's professional range, uh, pill range.

44:34Dr Jake SloaneOkay.

44:35David SegalSo the question that a lot of people are probably asking is a commercial perspective how does this stack up for their businesses? Obviously having a quality product is first and foremost, but there is the commercial side of it as well. So in terms of the kind of margins people can get from stocking your product. So are you able to give us any indication as, as to what that looks like?

44:54Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah. There's usually a 50% margin, but more important than margin, than the margin for the financial impact on the clinic is the revenue and the generating sales. And that can range as a percentage of, total clinic revenue. Skin product revenue, skin treatment revenue. Like microneedling pills can be anywhere from five, 10% up to 30%. would strongly suggest that someone, if they want to get into skin employees a therapist, thermal therapist, registered nurse who is in skin, I mean, there are People. there who just are in skin and they love it. And if You have someone like that, they'll make themselves busy and booked out in six months. Cell treatment. handover, fees, you'll get up to the 20% of revenue. you don't have to. be there, know it's done for you. so that's

45:56how it can go.

45:57David SegalYeah. I mean, skin is, tends to be that the primary focus these days. We know injectable products work, but in terms of how you care for that canvas, even prepping that canvas before you think about toxins or fillers seems to be a place where most people are starting to begin that journey with their patients. There, There seems to be a a better understanding of how to get someone looking natural, making sure that you're not overtreating someone, and if you get that canvas right first, a lot of the time, that can lead the way to be able to have less intervention with injectables at some stage down the path or down the track.

46:28Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah, we used to. have a well-known plastic surgeon working our practise and some years ago, and he used to say the foundation of beauty is beautiful skin. Yeah. So, same, same thing.

46:38Dr Jake SloaneYeah, definitely. if you were starting your career over again, would you do anything differently? you train a different way? Would you take on a better device? would you skip injectables? Yeah. What would you do differently?

46:50Dr Geoffrey HeberI don't want to think about it. It's too hard. Yeah. It's too hard. It's as we were discussing earlier, it's so competitive now and and attracting clients and breaking through, cutting through, even if you're the best there is cutting through and, achieving a good clientele I think is so difficult. So, good on someone if you can do it.

47:17David SegalYeah. what's next for you in Ultraceuticals? What does the next five to 10 year years look like? Able to share some your plans or what's coming down the line.

47:26Dr Geoffrey HeberYeah, Well, we're, expanding in USA, our CEO is over there at the moment. I was over there last week and I mean, it's pretty saturated, but talking to people over there, we, I'm Quite surprised. have a. unique offering with our own lab chemists Range We've been around for 28 years. It used to be. a big thing with people, Private equity, whatever, who wanted to buy skincare. companies. They'd ask me, how long you've been around? And I'd say, oh, 25 years. And that was the end of the conversation 'cause I wanted the next big thing. I wanted something to grow, like that Now because so many brands have gone like that and then crashed. Being around for 28 years is a big thing. you know, So, so we're looking to expand over. overseas and, go from there.

48:14Dr Jake SloaneGreat. Well, talking about the USA, we've got a, an offer, special offer for clinics both here in Australia and America. there'll be a link in the podcast description down below, but if you want to inquire with Ultras to, maybe open an account, you'll get 25% off by using, that link down below. And then they're also gonna choose one winner from America and one winner from Australia to win a pack of the Ultra MD product. So to enter, just use the link below and check it out guys.

48:44David Segalyou so much for your time. It's good to meet you, one of the, one of the pioneers of our industry and sharing your story and all of your insights. And best of luck for the future and looking forward to having a chat again soon.

48:52Dr Geoffrey HeberRob. thanks David. Thanks Joe.

48:54David SegalThank you, Jeff.

48:55Dr Geoffrey HeberI enjoyed it too. It was good. thank you.

48:56David Segalyou.